Sunday is a Catholic institution

[Frank Trebor]

A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......

"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.

"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.

"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and
all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere
in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman
Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment
of the Catholic Church." Priest Brady, in an address reported in the
Elizabeth, N.J. "News" of March 18 1903.

"Question:- Have you any other way of proving that the (Catholic)
Church has power to institute festivals of precept (to command holy
days)?" "Answer:- Had she not such power, she could not have done
that in which all modern religionists agree with her: She could not
have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week,
for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which
there is no Scriptural authority." Stephan Keenan, "A Doctrinal
Catechism." p. 176.

"Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other
of these doctrines: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of the
Sabbath, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise
is impossible." "The Catholic Mirror." Dec. 23 1893.

"God simply gave His (Catholic) Church the power to set aside
whatever day or days, she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The
Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of
time added other days as holy days." Vincent J Kelly. "Forbidden
Sunday and Feast-day Occupations." p. 2.

"Protestants.. accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for
public worship after the Catholic Church made the change.. But the
Protestant mind does not realize that in accepting the Bible, in
observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the
spokesman for the Church, the Pope." "Our Sunday Visitor" February 5
1950.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."
Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter June 20 1894.

Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3, but the Catholic
Church "can claim the honour of having granted man a pause to his
work every seven days." S C Morse. "Storia della Domenica" 1969
pp.366-367.

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is
Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under a veil of flesh." "The Catholic
National" july 1895.

"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on
the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following the law of
the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of
Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10
1920.

"We define that the Holy Apostolic See (the Vatican) and the Roman
Pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world." A decree of the
Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart "The
Most Holy Councils" Vol 13 col 1167.

It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ,
has transferred this rest (from the Bible Sabbath) to the Sunday..
Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they
pay, in spite of themselves to the authority of the Catholic
Church." Monsignor Louis Segur "Plain Talk About Protestantism
Today" p. 213

"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church
transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann
CSSR "A Doctrinal Catechism" 1957 edition p. 50.

"We Catholics, then, have precisely the same authority for keeping
Sunday holy instead of Saturday as we have for every other article
in our creed, namely, the authority of the Church.. whereas you who
are Protestants have really no authority for Sunday sacredness what-
soever; for there is no authority for it in the Bible, and you will
not allow that there can be authority for it anywhere else. Both you
and we do, in fact follow tradition in this matter; but we follow
it, believing it to be part of God's word, and the Catholic Church
to be its divinely appointed guardian and interpreter; you follow
the Catholic Church, denouncing it all the time as a fallible and
treacherous guide, which often 'makes the commandments of God of
none effect' (Matthew 15:6). The Brotherhood of St.Paul "The Clifton
Tracts" vol.4, tract 4, p. 15.

"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.

P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

[•R. Measures]

Post by Frank Trebor
A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.
...
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

• and if you think father-daughter incest is the best, the Bible is for
you. (Genesis 19)

[Shan]

Post by Frank Trebor
A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.
...
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

? and if you think father-daughter incest is the best, the Bible is for
you. (Genesis 19)

Hey, RL, there is a part which was edited out...

Lot's daughters: "Our father is old, and there is no man around here
to lie with us"...we're horny and need to get laid. Let's get the old
fart drunk and ride his pecker. We'll keep this our little secret
since there is no one around.

Remember that God had already destroyed the EVIL people and these were
the "GOOD."

;)

[•R. Measures]

Post by Shan

Post by Frank Trebor
A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.
...
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

? and if you think father-daughter incest is the best, the Bible is for
you. (Genesis 19)

Hey, RL, there is a part which was edited out...
Lot's daughters: "Our father is old, and there is no man around here
to lie with us"...we're horny and need to get laid. Let's get the old
fart drunk and ride his pecker. We'll keep this our little secret
since there is no one around.

• However, if Mr. Lot had been all that drunk, he would not have been
able to have an erection. My guess is that the wine story was an excuse.
Furthermore, if Lot's daughters were virgins, with normal hymens, no
half-hard penis is going to get in.

Post by Shan
Remember that God had already destroyed the EVIL people and these were
the "GOOD."

• Right, so incest is best. Do you think it possible that Lot's
daughters tricked their mother into looking back and getting turned to a
pillar salt so that they could do their dad?

cheers

[Shan]

Post by Shan

Post by Frank Trebor
A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.
...
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

? and if you think father-daughter incest is the best, the Bible is for
you. (Genesis 19)

Hey, RL, there is a part which was edited out...
Lot's daughters: "Our father is old, and there is no man around here
to lie with us"...we're horny and need to get laid. Let's get the old
fart drunk and ride his pecker. We'll keep this our little secret
since there is no one around.

? However, if Mr. Lot had been all that drunk, he would not have been
able to have an erection. My guess is that the wine story was an excuse.
Furthermore, if Lot's daughters were virgins, with normal hymens, no
half-hard penis is going to get in.

You are, of course, right. I don't always think of such "minor"
details though major they are. Thank you for correcting me when I
err.

Now, I believe the story is getting clearer in my mind. What really
happened was that he put on an act that he was drunk (or not in full
command of his actions) so that we won't blame him while his sluts of
two daughters displaced their carnal desires.

I guess, this is where the word "slut" comes from after Lot's
daughters as in "Who are these women?" "They're Lot's" which evolved
in time to become "s'Lot"..."slot"..."slut"

Post by Shan
Remember that God had already destroyed the EVIL people and these were
the "GOOD."

? Right, so incest is best. Do you think it possible that Lot's
daughters tricked their mother into looking back and getting turned to a
pillar salt so that they could do their dad?

I am almost certain. They got rid of her by one daughter walking in
front and one walking behind her mother then she called her in the
right moment when Sodom was immediately behind. The mother turned to
say "Yes, what do you want?" but could not help but see Sodom in the
background.

The lesson I see in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is that when you
want to commit major sins like incest, find a good excuse like "I was
drunk; I did not know what I wasa doing" and "We wanted to save the
human race so we had to do it."

The saved of Sodom were Righteous Bastards.

;)

[•R. Measures]

Post by Shan

Post by Shan

Post by Frank Trebor
A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.
...
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

? and if you think father-daughter incest is the best, the Bible is for
you. (Genesis 19)

Hey, RL, there is a part which was edited out...
Lot's daughters: "Our father is old, and there is no man around here
to lie with us"...we're horny and need to get laid. Let's get the old
fart drunk and ride his pecker. We'll keep this our little secret
since there is no one around.

? However, if Mr. Lot had been all that drunk, he would not have been
able to have an erection. My guess is that the wine story was an excuse.
Furthermore, if Lot's daughters were virgins, with normal hymens, no
half-hard penis is going to get in.

You are, of course, right. I don't always think of such "minor"
details though major they are. Thank you for correcting me when I
err.
Now, I believe the story is getting clearer in my mind. What really
happened was that he put on an act that he was drunk (or not in full
command of his actions) so that we won't blame him while his sluts of
two daughters displaced their carnal desires.
I guess, this is where the word "slut" comes from after Lot's
daughters as in "Who are these women?" "They're Lot's" which evolved
in time to become "s'Lot"..."slot"..."slut"

Post by Shan
Remember that God had already destroyed the EVIL people and these were
the "GOOD."

? Right, so incest is best. Do you think it possible that Lot's
daughters tricked their mother into looking back and getting turned to a
pillar salt so that they could do their dad?

I am almost certain. They got rid of her by one daughter walking in
front and one walking behind her mother then she called her in the
right moment when Sodom was immediately behind. The mother turned to
say "Yes, what do you want?" but could not help but see Sodom in the
background.

*** Sounds pretty damn likely to me. "Hey Ma, look, our house is gonna
burn!"

Post by Shan
The lesson I see in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is that when you
want to commit major sins like incest, find a good excuse like "I was
drunk; I did not know what I wasa doing" and "We wanted to save the
human race so we had to do it."

*** A lot of Christians bought the excuse.

Post by Shan
The saved of Sodom were Righteous Bastards.

*** Are you suggesting that Mr. Lot did not marry his daughters before
they gave birth?

[Shan]

Post by •R. Measures

Post by Shan

Post by Shan

Post by Frank Trebor
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

? and if you think father-daughter incest is the best, the Bible is for
you. (Genesis 19)

Hey, RL, there is a part which was edited out...
Lot's daughters: "Our father is old, and there is no man around here
to lie with us"...we're horny and need to get laid. Let's get the old
fart drunk and ride his pecker. We'll keep this our little secret
since there is no one around.

? However, if Mr. Lot had been all that drunk, he would not have been
able to have an erection. My guess is that the wine story was an excuse.
Furthermore, if Lot's daughters were virgins, with normal hymens, no
half-hard penis is going to get in.

You are, of course, right. I don't always think of such "minor"
details though major they are. Thank you for correcting me when I
err.
Now, I believe the story is getting clearer in my mind. What really
happened was that he put on an act that he was drunk (or not in full
command of his actions) so that we won't blame him while his sluts of
two daughters displaced their carnal desires.
I guess, this is where the word "slut" comes from after Lot's
daughters as in "Who are these women?" "They're Lot's" which evolved
in time to become "s'Lot"..."slot"..."slut"

Post by Shan
Remember that God had already destroyed the EVIL people and these were
the "GOOD."

? Right, so incest is best. Do you think it possible that Lot's
daughters tricked their mother into looking back and getting turned to a
pillar salt so that they could do their dad?

I am almost certain. They got rid of her by one daughter walking in
front and one walking behind her mother then she called her in the
right moment when Sodom was immediately behind. The mother turned to
say "Yes, what do you want?" but could not help but see Sodom in the
background.

*** Sounds pretty damn likely to me. "Hey Ma, look, our house is gonna
burn!"

Post by Shan
The lesson I see in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is that when you
want to commit major sins like incest, find a good excuse like "I was
drunk; I did not know what I wasa doing" and "We wanted to save the
human race so we had to do it."

*** A lot of Christians bought the excuse.

Post by Shan
The saved of Sodom were Righteous Bastards.

*** Are you suggesting that Mr. Lot did not marry his daughters before
they gave birth?

Most probably he didn't unless he was "gotten conveniently drunk".

[•R. Measures]

Post by Shan

Post by •R. Measures

Post by Shan

Post by Frank Trebor
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

? and if you think father-daughter incest is the best, the Bible is for
you. (Genesis 19)

...

*** A lot of Christians bought the excuse.

Post by Shan
The saved of Sodom were Righteous Bastards.

*** Are you suggesting that Mr. Lot did not marry his daughters before
they gave birth?

Most probably he didn't unless he was "gotten conveniently drunk".

*** again. I wonder if Lot ever wondered who the fathers of his
daughters' children were? Hey dad, doesn't he look like you?

[Shan]

Post by •R. Measures

Post by Shan

Post by •R. Measures

Post by Shan

Post by Frank Trebor
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

? and if you think father-daughter incest is the best, the Bible

is for

Post by Shan

Post by •R. Measures

Post by Shan

you. (Genesis 19)

...

*** A lot of Christians bought the excuse.

Post by Shan
The saved of Sodom were Righteous Bastards.

*** Are you suggesting that Mr. Lot did not marry his daughters before
they gave birth?

Most probably he didn't unless he was "gotten conveniently drunk".

*** again. I wonder if Lot ever wondered who the fathers of his
daughters' children were? Hey dad, doesn't he look like you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.........

[Teresita]

Post by •R. Measures
*** again. I wonder if Lot ever wondered who the fathers of his
daughters' children were? Hey dad, doesn't he look like you?

"Would a cow lick my wife?" Lot replied.

--
Teresita

[•R.L.Measures]

Post by Teresita

Post by •R. Measures
*** again. I wonder if Lot ever wondered who the fathers of his
daughters' children were? Hey dad, doesn't he look like you?

"Would a cow lick my wife?" Lot replied.

• Not bad, not bad.

cheers, Teresita

[Cindy]

Post by Frank Trebor
A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......

And here's a major one:

"ROME'S CHALLENGE
Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday?

Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of
worship. The Roman Catholic Church protests that it transferred
Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and
that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both
dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants
to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on
Saturday.

Over one hundred years ago the Catholic Mirror ran a series of
articles discussing the right of the Protestant churches to worship on
Sunday. The articles stressed that unless one was willing to accept
the authority of the Catholic Church to designate the day of worship,
the Christian should observe Saturday. Those articles are presented
here in their entirety."
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/chalng.htm

From the bottom of that same page:
"The March 1998 edition of Mary Online, a Catholic web site, has
republished online Rome's Challenge to the Protestant Sunday keepers,
and reaffirmed the challenge in an appended Editor's note."
http://www.immaculateheart.com/MaryOnLine/html/apologetics.html

Here's Mary Onlines appended Editor's note:
<begin quote>
[EDITORS' NOTE. -- It was upon this very point that the Reformation
was
condemned by the Council of Trent. The Reformers had constantly
charged,
as here stated, that the Catholic Church had "apostatized from the
truth
as contained in the written word. "The written word," "The Bible and
the
Bible only," "Thus saith the Lord," these were their constant
watchwords; and "the Scripture, as in the written word, the sole
standard of appeal," this was the proclaimed platform of the
Reformation
and of Protestantism. "The Scripture and tradition." The Bible as
interpreted by the Church and according to the unanimous consent of
the
Fathers," this was the position and claim of the Catholic Church. This
was the main issue in the Council of Trent, which was called
especially
to consider the questions that had been raised and forced upon the
attention of Europe by the Reformers. The very first question
concerning
faith that was considered by the council was the question involved in
this issue. There was a strong party even of the Catholics within the
council who were in favor of abandoning tradition and adopting the
Scriptures only, as the standard of authority. This view was so
decidedly held in the debates in the council that the pope's legates
actually wrote to him that there was "a strong tendency to set aside
tradition altogether and to make Scripture the sole standard of
appeal."
But to do this would manifestly be to go a long way toward justifying
the claims of the Protestants. By this crisis there was developed upon
the ultra-Catholic portion of the council the task of convincing the
others that "Scripture and tradition" were the only sure ground to
stand
upon. If this could be done, the council could be carried to issue a
decree condemning the Reformation, otherwise not. The question was
debated day after day, until the council was fairly brought to a
standstill. Finally, after a long and intensive mental strain, the
Archbishop of Reggio came into the council with substantially the
following argument to the party who held for Scripture alone:

"The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They
profess
to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify
their
revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written
word
and follows tradition. Now the Protestants claim, that they stand upon
the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the
Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false. PROOF: The written
word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the
Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they
do
truly hold the scripture alone as their standard, they would be
observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout.
Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the
written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of
Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church.
Consequently the claim of 'Scripture alone as the standard,' fails;
and
the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully
established, the Protestants themselves being judges."

[Archbishop Reggio made his speech at the last opening session of
Trent,
on the 18th of January, 1562. -- J. H. Holtzman, Canon and Tradition,
published in Ludwigsburg, Germany, in 1859, page 263.]

There was no getting around this, for the Protestants' own statement
of
faith -- the Augsburg Confession, 1530 -- had clearly admitted that
"the
observation of the Lord's day" had been appointed by "the Church"
only.

The argument was hailed in the council as of Inspiration only; the
party
for "Scripture alone," surrendered; and the council at once
unanimously
condemned Protestantism and the whole Reformation as only an
unwarranted
revolt from the communion and authority of the Catholic Church; and
proceeded, April 8, 1546, "to the promulgation of two decrees, the
first
of which, enacts under anathema, that Scripture and tradition are to
be
received and venerated equally, and that the deutero-canonical [the
apocryphal] books are part of the canon of Scripture. The second
decree
declares the Vulgate to be the sole authentic and standard Latin
version, and gives it such authority as to supersede the original
texts;
forbids the interpretation of Scripture contrary to the sense received
by the Church, 'or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the
Fathers,'" etc.

This was the inconsistency of the Protestant practice with the
Protestant profession that gave to the Catholic Church her long-sought
and anxiously desired ground upon which to condemn Protestantism and
the
whole Reformation movement as only a selfishly ambitious rebellion
against the Church authority. And in this vital controversy the key,
the
chiefest and culminative expression, of the Protestant inconsistency
was
in the rejection of the Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, enjoined
in the Scriptures, and the adoption and observance of the Sunday as
enjoined by the Catholic Church.

And this is today the position of the respective parties to this
controversy. Today, as this document shows, this is the vital issue
upon
which the Catholic Church arraigns Protestantism, and upon which she
condemns the course of popular Protestantism as being "indefensible",
self-contradictory, and suicidal." What will these Protestants, what
will this Protestantism, do?]

Should any of the reverend parsons, who are habituated to howl so
vociferously over every real or assumed desecration of that pious
fraud,
the Bible Sabbath, think well of entering a protest against our
logical
and Scriptural dissection of their mongrel pet, we can promise them
that
any reasonable attempt on their part to gather up the disjecta membra
of
the hybrid, and to restore to it a galvanized existence, with be met
with genuine cordiality and respectful consideration on our part.

But we can assure our readers that we know these reverend howlers too
well to expect a solitary bark from them in this instance. And they
know
us too well to subject themselves to the mortification which a further
dissection of this anti scriptural question would necessarily entail.
Their policy now is to "lay low," and they are sure to adopt it.


A Note From the Editors of Mary OnLine+

Credit for this article's appearance here must go, in a case of
delicious irony, to the Bible Light Home Page and to Michael
Scheifler,
a Seventh Day Adventist, who, in an act of Christian "charity",
awarded
The Immaculate Heart of Mary with his ominous sounding "666 Dangerous
Site" designation, a reference, apparently, to the SDA's long held
belief that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon and the
instrument of the Anti-Christ. Laughable, yes, but it is not the
intent
here to engage in that debate. We give Mr. Scheifler credit simply
because he did all the work on getting it typed in and on the 'net in
the first place, and graciously gave us permission to use his work.

The SDA now actually publishes this article in booklet form, to use in
it's propaganda to lull people from the True Faith. Unaware that using
an article, published by a Catholic Cardinal, in a Catholic newspaper,
to convert people to their sect, is a bit like using an advertisement
for Coke to get people to buy Pepsi, the article nevertheless makes a
valid point.

The challenge issued by Rome over 100 years ago remains: Either the
Catholic Church is right, or the Seventh Day Adventists are right.
There
can be no other choice. And if one choose neither, then the whole
doctrine of Sola Scriptura collapses, and with it, the pillar upon
which
all of Protestantism stands.

What one has left is an invented religion, an invented God, and an
invented set of beliefs that suits man's purpose, and not the
Creator's.
Like Satan and Luther before them, Protestants have spoken the creed,
in
action and in thought, if not in word, "I Will Not Serve."

The challenge remains -- yet you will find no response, not from any
Evangelical, Fundamentalist, or mainline Protestant denomination
anywhere. Ultimately, it is the clear authority of the Catholic Church
as vested in Her by God Himself, that rules the day. That the SDA is
at
least principled enough to follow Sola Scriptura to the ends of its
ridiculous claims, is hardly an argument in their favor -- to be
completely and wholly wrong, is no better than being partly wrong,
especially when the eternal salvation of souls is concerned.

As Christians, though, we can grant and recognize in them the courage
of
their convictions, and yet still move to pray that the Holy Spirit,
through the Mother of God, will soften their hearts, open their eyes,
and grant them the peace and grace that comes to us from God in the
Holy
Catholic Church.

For all other Protestants, an indictment remains unanswered, standing
unanswered now for 500 years. They have been arraigned in Council, and
have convicted themselves. We must always pray for them, that they too
may see the grace and boundless forgiveness that God holds for all
men,
and that the foolish pride, that is at the root of all of Christian
disunity between themselves and Holy Mother Church, melts away in the
light of God's love, and the unbreakable promise given by Christ
Himself
that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail" against His Church, neither
in the guise of Luther, nor in the modern materialism and rationalism
that is currently buffeting the Church.

Amen.
<endquote>

~ Cindy

Post by Frank Trebor
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.
"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and
all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere
in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman
Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment
of the Catholic Church." Priest Brady, in an address reported in the
Elizabeth, N.J. "News" of March 18 1903.
"Question:- Have you any other way of proving that the (Catholic)
Church has power to institute festivals of precept (to command holy
days)?" "Answer:- Had she not such power, she could not have done
that in which all modern religionists agree with her: She could not
have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week,
for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which
there is no Scriptural authority." Stephan Keenan, "A Doctrinal
Catechism." p. 176.
"Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other
of these doctrines: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of the
Sabbath, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise
is impossible." "The Catholic Mirror." Dec. 23 1893.
"God simply gave His (Catholic) Church the power to set aside
whatever day or days, she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The
Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of
time added other days as holy days." Vincent J Kelly. "Forbidden
Sunday and Feast-day Occupations." p. 2.
"Protestants.. accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for
public worship after the Catholic Church made the change.. But the
Protestant mind does not realize that in accepting the Bible, in
observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the
spokesman for the Church, the Pope." "Our Sunday Visitor" February 5
1950.
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."
Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter June 20 1894.
Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3, but the Catholic
Church "can claim the honour of having granted man a pause to his
work every seven days." S C Morse. "Storia della Domenica" 1969
pp.366-367.
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is
Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under a veil of flesh." "The Catholic
National" july 1895.
"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on
the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following the law of
the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of
Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10
1920.
"We define that the Holy Apostolic See (the Vatican) and the Roman
Pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world." A decree of the
Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart "The
Most Holy Councils" Vol 13 col 1167.
It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ,
has transferred this rest (from the Bible Sabbath) to the Sunday..
Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they
pay, in spite of themselves to the authority of the Catholic
Church." Monsignor Louis Segur "Plain Talk About Protestantism
Today" p. 213
"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church
transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann
CSSR "A Doctrinal Catechism" 1957 edition p. 50.
"We Catholics, then, have precisely the same authority for keeping
Sunday holy instead of Saturday as we have for every other article
in our creed, namely, the authority of the Church.. whereas you who
are Protestants have really no authority for Sunday sacredness what-
soever; for there is no authority for it in the Bible, and you will
not allow that there can be authority for it anywhere else. Both you
and we do, in fact follow tradition in this matter; but we follow
it, believing it to be part of God's word, and the Catholic Church
to be its divinely appointed guardian and interpreter; you follow
the Catholic Church, denouncing it all the time as a fallible and
treacherous guide, which often 'makes the commandments of God of
none effect' (Matthew 15:6). The Brotherhood of St.Paul "The Clifton
Tracts" vol.4, tract 4, p. 15.
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

[bulldogsbutt]

So what! The Bible makes it clear that no day of worship is better than any
other, not the Catholic Church. The Bible mentions Christians meeting on
Sunday shortly before and after Christ's ascension not the Catholic Church.
The Epistles mention the first day of the week for collections, not the
Catholic Church. The Bible declares the Sabbath to be a shadow of Christ,
not the Catholic Church.
Just because the Catholic Church claims that Sunday worship was started by
her authority doesn't make it so. Check out the writings of the early
church fathers from the second and third century and you will find Sunday
worship alive and predominate well before Constantine.
I think you have been too heavily influenced by Susan Williams/Ted McMillan,
or are you a third alter ego of the aforementioned?

BDB

Post by Cindy

Post by Frank Trebor
A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......

"ROME'S CHALLENGE
Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday?
Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of
worship. The Roman Catholic Church protests that it transferred
Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and
that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both
dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants
to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on
Saturday.
Over one hundred years ago the Catholic Mirror ran a series of
articles discussing the right of the Protestant churches to worship on
Sunday. The articles stressed that unless one was willing to accept
the authority of the Catholic Church to designate the day of worship,
the Christian should observe Saturday. Those articles are presented
here in their entirety."
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/chalng.htm
"The March 1998 edition of Mary Online, a Catholic web site, has
republished online Rome's Challenge to the Protestant Sunday keepers,
and reaffirmed the challenge in an appended Editor's note."
http://www.immaculateheart.com/MaryOnLine/html/apologetics.html
<begin quote>
[EDITORS' NOTE. -- It was upon this very point that the Reformation
was
condemned by the Council of Trent. The Reformers had constantly
charged,
as here stated, that the Catholic Church had "apostatized from the
truth
as contained in the written word. "The written word," "The Bible and
the
Bible only," "Thus saith the Lord," these were their constant
watchwords; and "the Scripture, as in the written word, the sole
standard of appeal," this was the proclaimed platform of the
Reformation
and of Protestantism. "The Scripture and tradition." The Bible as
interpreted by the Church and according to the unanimous consent of
the
Fathers," this was the position and claim of the Catholic Church. This
was the main issue in the Council of Trent, which was called
especially
to consider the questions that had been raised and forced upon the
attention of Europe by the Reformers. The very first question
concerning
faith that was considered by the council was the question involved in
this issue. There was a strong party even of the Catholics within the
council who were in favor of abandoning tradition and adopting the
Scriptures only, as the standard of authority. This view was so
decidedly held in the debates in the council that the pope's legates
actually wrote to him that there was "a strong tendency to set aside
tradition altogether and to make Scripture the sole standard of
appeal."
But to do this would manifestly be to go a long way toward justifying
the claims of the Protestants. By this crisis there was developed upon
the ultra-Catholic portion of the council the task of convincing the
others that "Scripture and tradition" were the only sure ground to
stand
upon. If this could be done, the council could be carried to issue a
decree condemning the Reformation, otherwise not. The question was
debated day after day, until the council was fairly brought to a
standstill. Finally, after a long and intensive mental strain, the
Archbishop of Reggio came into the council with substantially the
"The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They
profess
to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify
their
revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written
word
and follows tradition. Now the Protestants claim, that they stand upon
the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the
Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false. PROOF: The written
word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the
Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they
do
truly hold the scripture alone as their standard, they would be
observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout.
Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the
written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of
Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church.
Consequently the claim of 'Scripture alone as the standard,' fails;
and
the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully
established, the Protestants themselves being judges."
[Archbishop Reggio made his speech at the last opening session of
Trent,
on the 18th of January, 1562. -- J. H. Holtzman, Canon and Tradition,
published in Ludwigsburg, Germany, in 1859, page 263.]
There was no getting around this, for the Protestants' own statement
of
faith -- the Augsburg Confession, 1530 -- had clearly admitted that
"the
observation of the Lord's day" had been appointed by "the Church"
only.
The argument was hailed in the council as of Inspiration only; the
party
for "Scripture alone," surrendered; and the council at once
unanimously
condemned Protestantism and the whole Reformation as only an
unwarranted
revolt from the communion and authority of the Catholic Church; and
proceeded, April 8, 1546, "to the promulgation of two decrees, the
first
of which, enacts under anathema, that Scripture and tradition are to
be
received and venerated equally, and that the deutero-canonical [the
apocryphal] books are part of the canon of Scripture. The second
decree
declares the Vulgate to be the sole authentic and standard Latin
version, and gives it such authority as to supersede the original
texts;
forbids the interpretation of Scripture contrary to the sense received
by the Church, 'or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the
Fathers,'" etc.
This was the inconsistency of the Protestant practice with the
Protestant profession that gave to the Catholic Church her long-sought
and anxiously desired ground upon which to condemn Protestantism and
the
whole Reformation movement as only a selfishly ambitious rebellion
against the Church authority. And in this vital controversy the key,
the
chiefest and culminative expression, of the Protestant inconsistency
was
in the rejection of the Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, enjoined
in the Scriptures, and the adoption and observance of the Sunday as
enjoined by the Catholic Church.
And this is today the position of the respective parties to this
controversy. Today, as this document shows, this is the vital issue
upon
which the Catholic Church arraigns Protestantism, and upon which she
condemns the course of popular Protestantism as being "indefensible",
self-contradictory, and suicidal." What will these Protestants, what
will this Protestantism, do?]
Should any of the reverend parsons, who are habituated to howl so
vociferously over every real or assumed desecration of that pious
fraud,
the Bible Sabbath, think well of entering a protest against our
logical
and Scriptural dissection of their mongrel pet, we can promise them
that
any reasonable attempt on their part to gather up the disjecta membra
of
the hybrid, and to restore to it a galvanized existence, with be met
with genuine cordiality and respectful consideration on our part.
But we can assure our readers that we know these reverend howlers too
well to expect a solitary bark from them in this instance. And they
know
us too well to subject themselves to the mortification which a further
dissection of this anti scriptural question would necessarily entail.
Their policy now is to "lay low," and they are sure to adopt it.
A Note From the Editors of Mary OnLine+
Credit for this article's appearance here must go, in a case of
delicious irony, to the Bible Light Home Page and to Michael
Scheifler,
a Seventh Day Adventist, who, in an act of Christian "charity",
awarded
The Immaculate Heart of Mary with his ominous sounding "666 Dangerous
Site" designation, a reference, apparently, to the SDA's long held
belief that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon and the
instrument of the Anti-Christ. Laughable, yes, but it is not the
intent
here to engage in that debate. We give Mr. Scheifler credit simply
because he did all the work on getting it typed in and on the 'net in
the first place, and graciously gave us permission to use his work.
The SDA now actually publishes this article in booklet form, to use in
it's propaganda to lull people from the True Faith. Unaware that using
an article, published by a Catholic Cardinal, in a Catholic newspaper,
to convert people to their sect, is a bit like using an advertisement
for Coke to get people to buy Pepsi, the article nevertheless makes a
valid point.
The challenge issued by Rome over 100 years ago remains: Either the
Catholic Church is right, or the Seventh Day Adventists are right.
There
can be no other choice. And if one choose neither, then the whole
doctrine of Sola Scriptura collapses, and with it, the pillar upon
which
all of Protestantism stands.
What one has left is an invented religion, an invented God, and an
invented set of beliefs that suits man's purpose, and not the
Creator's.
Like Satan and Luther before them, Protestants have spoken the creed,
in
action and in thought, if not in word, "I Will Not Serve."
The challenge remains -- yet you will find no response, not from any
Evangelical, Fundamentalist, or mainline Protestant denomination
anywhere. Ultimately, it is the clear authority of the Catholic Church
as vested in Her by God Himself, that rules the day. That the SDA is
at
least principled enough to follow Sola Scriptura to the ends of its
ridiculous claims, is hardly an argument in their favor -- to be
completely and wholly wrong, is no better than being partly wrong,
especially when the eternal salvation of souls is concerned.
As Christians, though, we can grant and recognize in them the courage
of
their convictions, and yet still move to pray that the Holy Spirit,
through the Mother of God, will soften their hearts, open their eyes,
and grant them the peace and grace that comes to us from God in the
Holy
Catholic Church.
For all other Protestants, an indictment remains unanswered, standing
unanswered now for 500 years. They have been arraigned in Council, and
have convicted themselves. We must always pray for them, that they too
may see the grace and boundless forgiveness that God holds for all
men,
and that the foolish pride, that is at the root of all of Christian
disunity between themselves and Holy Mother Church, melts away in the
light of God's love, and the unbreakable promise given by Christ
Himself
that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail" against His Church, neither
in the guise of Luther, nor in the modern materialism and rationalism
that is currently buffeting the Church.
Amen.
<endquote>
~ Cindy

Post by Frank Trebor
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.
"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and
all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere
in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman
Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment
of the Catholic Church." Priest Brady, in an address reported in the
Elizabeth, N.J. "News" of March 18 1903.
"Question:- Have you any other way of proving that the (Catholic)
Church has power to institute festivals of precept (to command holy
days)?" "Answer:- Had she not such power, she could not have done
that in which all modern religionists agree with her: She could not
have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week,
for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which
there is no Scriptural authority." Stephan Keenan, "A Doctrinal
Catechism." p. 176.
"Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other
of these doctrines: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of the
Sabbath, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise
is impossible." "The Catholic Mirror." Dec. 23 1893.
"God simply gave His (Catholic) Church the power to set aside
whatever day or days, she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The
Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of
time added other days as holy days." Vincent J Kelly. "Forbidden
Sunday and Feast-day Occupations." p. 2.
"Protestants.. accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for
public worship after the Catholic Church made the change.. But the
Protestant mind does not realize that in accepting the Bible, in
observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the
spokesman for the Church, the Pope." "Our Sunday Visitor" February 5
1950.
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."
Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter June 20 1894.
Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3, but the Catholic
Church "can claim the honour of having granted man a pause to his
work every seven days." S C Morse. "Storia della Domenica" 1969
pp.366-367.
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is
Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under a veil of flesh." "The Catholic
National" july 1895.
"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on
the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following the law of
the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of
Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10
1920.
"We define that the Holy Apostolic See (the Vatican) and the Roman
Pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world." A decree of the
Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart "The
Most Holy Councils" Vol 13 col 1167.
It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ,
has transferred this rest (from the Bible Sabbath) to the Sunday..
Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they
pay, in spite of themselves to the authority of the Catholic
Church." Monsignor Louis Segur "Plain Talk About Protestantism
Today" p. 213
"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church
transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann
CSSR "A Doctrinal Catechism" 1957 edition p. 50.
"We Catholics, then, have precisely the same authority for keeping
Sunday holy instead of Saturday as we have for every other article
in our creed, namely, the authority of the Church.. whereas you who
are Protestants have really no authority for Sunday sacredness what-
soever; for there is no authority for it in the Bible, and you will
not allow that there can be authority for it anywhere else. Both you
and we do, in fact follow tradition in this matter; but we follow
it, believing it to be part of God's word, and the Catholic Church
to be its divinely appointed guardian and interpreter; you follow
the Catholic Church, denouncing it all the time as a fallible and
treacherous guide, which often 'makes the commandments of God of
none effect' (Matthew 15:6). The Brotherhood of St.Paul "The Clifton
Tracts" vol.4, tract 4, p. 15.
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

[Cindy]

Post by bulldogsbutt
So what!

Ooo..kay.

Post by bulldogsbutt
The Bible makes it clear that no day of worship is better than any
other, not the Catholic Church.

That is a very strange thing to say, because all of your arguments
below are not about proving that Sunday is no different from any other
day, are they? They are actually your justification for doing so.

Post by bulldogsbutt
The Bible mentions Christians meeting on
Sunday shortly before and after Christ's ascension not the Catholic Church.

They were not assembled because he had arisen. They were afraid of
being killed next
Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the
week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for
fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto
them, Peace [be] unto you.

This was a perfect time for Jesus to say something about assembling or
worshipping on the first day of the week from then on, He did not do
so.

And even if he had it would have been three dats too late.

Neither The Father, nor the Son commanded anything about assembling on
Sunday, or changing the Seventh-day Sabbath before the New Covenant
was sealed with the blood of Christ.

Post by bulldogsbutt
The Epistles mention the first day of the week for collections, not the
Catholic Church.

No. You say that. The bible records Paul asking them to lay their
offerings aside on that day and keep them in store for when he did
come so there wouldn't be gatherings when he came.

1Cr 16:2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by
him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings
when I come.

Post by bulldogsbutt
The Bible declares the Sabbath to be a shadow of Christ,
not the Catholic Church.

The shadows pointed forward to Christ,and are fullfilled. the Sabbath
was created and is a memorial, and so always pointed back to Creation
and the Creator.
Just as the Lord's supper is a memorial which points back.

Post by bulldogsbutt
Just because the Catholic Church claims that Sunday worship was started by
her authority doesn't make it so.

Well what day do you go to church on and why?
Where did God order this? Where is it in his word? Where's the command
from Jesus?

Post by bulldogsbutt
Check out the writings of the early
church fathers from the second and third century and you will find Sunday
worship alive and predominate well before Constantine.

Yes. You will also find Christians observing the Seventh-day Sabbath,
but what are you saying here? That traditions of man is what you
follow and not commandments of God?

"The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They
profess
to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify
their
revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written
word
and follows tradition. Now the Protestants claim, that they stand upon
the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the
Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false. PROOF: The written
word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the
Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they
do
truly hold the scripture alone as their standard, they would be
observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout.
Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the
written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of
Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church.
Consequently the claim of 'Scripture alone as the standard,' fails;
and
the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully
established, the Protestants themselves being judges."

Source: Archbishop Reggio at the last opening session of
Council of Trent, 01/18/1562


What was the definition of Baptist and identification of the beast and
his mark again???
I don't recall you ever answering those questions???

Post by bulldogsbutt
I think you have been too heavily influenced by Susan Williams/Ted McMillan,

I have been aware you thought that for years now. Why not just say
what really bothers you?

Post by bulldogsbutt
or are you a third alter ego of the aforementioned?

Don't be dumb. You know better.

~ Cindy

[bulldogsbutt]

Post by Cindy

Post by bulldogsbutt
So what!

Ooo..kay.

Post by bulldogsbutt
The Bible makes it clear that no day of worship is better than any
other, not the Catholic Church.

That is a very strange thing to say, because all of your arguments
below are not about proving that Sunday is no different from any other
day, are they? They are actually your justification for doing so.

Post by bulldogsbutt
The Bible mentions Christians meeting on
Sunday shortly before and after Christ's ascension not the Catholic Church.

They were not assembled because he had arisen. They were afraid of
being killed next
Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the
week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for
fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto
them, Peace [be] unto you.

Correct, but since the room was obviously available to them for a number of
days, what is the signifcance of Jesus showing up on the first day of the
week instead of the seventh?

Post by Cindy
This was a perfect time for Jesus to say something about assembling or
worshipping on the first day of the week from then on, He did not do
so.

Correct again if any particular day of the week had any real significance.
It would also have been a perfect time for Jesus to remind them not to
forsake the Sabbath

Post by Cindy
And even if he had it would have been three dats too late.
Neither The Father, nor the Son commanded anything about assembling on
Sunday, or changing the Seventh-day Sabbath before the New Covenant
was sealed with the blood of Christ.

Post by bulldogsbutt
The Epistles mention the first day of the week for collections, not

the

Post by bulldogsbutt
Catholic Church.

No. You say that. The bible records Paul asking them to lay their
offerings aside on that day and keep them in store for when he did
come so there wouldn't be gatherings when he came.
1Cr 16:2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by
him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings
when I come.

The significant point is that the money would all be in one place when Paul
arrived. How was this to be accomplished if everyone was putting the money
in the cookie jar at home. Secondly, why command people to put money aside
at home where temptation or perceived need could cause them to spend it? If
there were to be no gatherings when Paul arrived how was this accomplished
if the money was in the various homes of the Corinthians. BTW Corinth was
not a small town.
Secondly, the word uses for their gift to Jerusalem is a singular noun. not
plural. One gift set aside at their meetings in one place or in one
trustees possesion so that it could be sent immediately. The SDA
interpretation ignores the context of the event IMHO.

Post by Cindy

Post by bulldogsbutt
The Bible declares the Sabbath to be a shadow of Christ,
not the Catholic Church.

The shadows pointed forward to Christ,and are fullfilled. the Sabbath
was created and is a memorial, and so always pointed back to Creation
and the Creator.
Just as the Lord's supper is a memorial which points back.

Communion is commanded for Christians and is only for Christians to observe.
No non-Christian can in reality observe communion and in fact is in reality
is profaning it. Sabbath was commanded for Israel and is only for Israel.
Since it was commanded by God to the Children of Israel only an Israeli can
really observe it. (Read Ex 20. You will notice in verse one that the
commandments were given to Israel verbally and then later they were codified
in the written tablets.)

Post by Cindy

Post by bulldogsbutt
Just because the Catholic Church claims that Sunday worship was

started by

Post by bulldogsbutt
her authority doesn't make it so.

Well what day do you go to church on and why?

I go on Sunday because on Monday I am the only one there and the door is
locked ;-)

Post by Cindy
Where did God order this? Where is it in his word? Where's the command
from Jesus?

Heb 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of
some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day
drawing near
If you will noticce, no particular day is specified.

Post by Cindy

Post by bulldogsbutt
Check out the writings of the early
church fathers from the second and third century and you will find

Sunday

Post by bulldogsbutt
worship alive and predominate well before Constantine.

Yes. You will also find Christians observing the Seventh-day Sabbath,
but what are you saying here? That traditions of man is what you
follow and not commandments of God?

True, most of them were ethnic Jews however.

Post by Cindy
"The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They
profess
to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify
their
revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written
word
and follows tradition. Now the Protestants claim, that they stand upon
the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the
Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false. PROOF: The written
word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the
Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they
do

As does the SDA church. You will notice that the Sabbath was given as a day
of REST in the fourth commandment not a day of meeting. It was to be
observed at home with family, not at the Temple. There were no synogogues in
Israel until after the exile to Babylon. Israelites were commanded to
meeting at the Temple in Jerusalem only during certain anual feasts.
Modern day sabbatarians follow the talmudic traditions of the post exile
Jews in meeting in the synogogue on the Sabbath. Something that is not
commanded in the fourth commandment.

Post by Cindy
truly hold the scripture alone as their standard, they would be
observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout.

Yet SDAs do not observe the Sabbath AS IT IS COMMANDED IN SCRIPTURE.
Instead they have redefined it according to talmudic traditions.

Post by Cindy
Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the
written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of
Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church.
Consequently the claim of 'Scripture alone as the standard,' fails;
and
the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully
established, the Protestants themselves being judges."

It is most likely that Sunday gatherings came into being for two reasons.
First, because the Romans considered it a sacred day most city folk had the
day free to meet together. Second it is also the day that Jesus rose from
the dead, meet with the diciples (on two suceeding Sundays) and it was also
the day the Holy Spirit was first given to the believers in Jerusalem.

BDB

Post by Cindy
Source: Archbishop Reggio at the last opening session of
Council of Trent, 01/18/1562
What was the definition of Baptist and identification of the beast and
his mark again???
I don't recall you ever answering those questions???

Post by bulldogsbutt
I think you have been too heavily influenced by Susan Williams/Ted

McMillan,
I have been aware you thought that for years now. Why not just say
what really bothers you?

Post by bulldogsbutt
or are you a third alter ego of the aforementioned?

Don't be dumb. You know better.
~ Cindy

[bulldogsbutt]

Post by Frank Trebor
A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.
"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and
all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere
in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman
Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment
of the Catholic Church." Priest Brady, in an address reported in the
Elizabeth, N.J. "News" of March 18 1903.
"Question:- Have you any other way of proving that the (Catholic)
Church has power to institute festivals of precept (to command holy
days)?" "Answer:- Had she not such power, she could not have done
that in which all modern religionists agree with her: She could not
have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week,
for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which
there is no Scriptural authority." Stephan Keenan, "A Doctrinal
Catechism." p. 176.
"Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other
of these doctrines: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of the
Sabbath, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise
is impossible." "The Catholic Mirror." Dec. 23 1893.
"God simply gave His (Catholic) Church the power to set aside
whatever day or days, she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The
Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of
time added other days as holy days." Vincent J Kelly. "Forbidden
Sunday and Feast-day Occupations." p. 2.
"Protestants.. accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for
public worship after the Catholic Church made the change.. But the
Protestant mind does not realize that in accepting the Bible, in
observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the
spokesman for the Church, the Pope." "Our Sunday Visitor" February 5
1950.
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."
Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter June 20 1894.
Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3, but the Catholic
Church "can claim the honour of having granted man a pause to his
work every seven days." S C Morse. "Storia della Domenica" 1969
pp.366-367.
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is
Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under a veil of flesh." "The Catholic
National" july 1895.
"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on
the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following the law of
the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of
Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10
1920.
"We define that the Holy Apostolic See (the Vatican) and the Roman
Pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world." A decree of the
Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart "The
Most Holy Councils" Vol 13 col 1167.
It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ,
has transferred this rest (from the Bible Sabbath) to the Sunday..
Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they
pay, in spite of themselves to the authority of the Catholic
Church." Monsignor Louis Segur "Plain Talk About Protestantism
Today" p. 213
"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church
transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann
CSSR "A Doctrinal Catechism" 1957 edition p. 50.
"We Catholics, then, have precisely the same authority for keeping
Sunday holy instead of Saturday as we have for every other article
in our creed, namely, the authority of the Church.. whereas you who
are Protestants have really no authority for Sunday sacredness what-
soever; for there is no authority for it in the Bible, and you will
not allow that there can be authority for it anywhere else. Both you
and we do, in fact follow tradition in this matter; but we follow
it, believing it to be part of God's word, and the Catholic Church
to be its divinely appointed guardian and interpreter; you follow
the Catholic Church, denouncing it all the time as a fallible and
treacherous guide, which often 'makes the commandments of God of
none effect' (Matthew 15:6). The Brotherhood of St.Paul "The Clifton
Tracts" vol.4, tract 4, p. 15.
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

So now you are accepting the words of Catholic people and publications as
being authoritative? If you accept what they say here aren't you being
hypocritical by not accepting what they say about other doctrines? The
problem is that you are accepting as authoritative the writings of a
delusional ninteenth century woman who also believed what the Catholics wrot
e.
BTW I can claim to have invented the first personal computer also, but just
claiming it don't make it so.

BDB

[j w <[e-mail]>]

x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:26:59 +1200, "Frank Trebor"
<***@hotmail.com> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly (keep it in the group, folks)

Post by Frank Trebor
A few statements from and about the R.C.C. over the years:......
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can
be defended only on Catholic principles.. From beginning to end of
Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants transfer of
weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."
Catholic Press, Sydney, August 1900.

Sunday Christian worship started the evening Christ rose. It is
mentioned also in Acts 2, and again in Corinthians.

The famous service during which the young boy fell asleep in the upper
window and fell to his death, and Paul stopped the service long enough
to raise the boy from the dead....

That service was a Sunday morning CHRISTIAN service.


jw

Post by Frank Trebor
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman) Catholic
Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought
logically to keep Saturday as its Sabbath." John Gilmary Shee, in
the "American Catholic Quarterly Review." January 1883.
"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and
all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere
in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman
Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment
of the Catholic Church." Priest Brady, in an address reported in the
Elizabeth, N.J. "News" of March 18 1903.
"Question:- Have you any other way of proving that the (Catholic)
Church has power to institute festivals of precept (to command holy
days)?" "Answer:- Had she not such power, she could not have done
that in which all modern religionists agree with her: She could not
have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week,
for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which
there is no Scriptural authority." Stephan Keenan, "A Doctrinal
Catechism." p. 176.
"Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other
of these doctrines: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of the
Sabbath, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise
is impossible." "The Catholic Mirror." Dec. 23 1893.
"God simply gave His (Catholic) Church the power to set aside
whatever day or days, she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The
Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of
time added other days as holy days." Vincent J Kelly. "Forbidden
Sunday and Feast-day Occupations." p. 2.
"Protestants.. accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for
public worship after the Catholic Church made the change.. But the
Protestant mind does not realize that in accepting the Bible, in
observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the
spokesman for the Church, the Pope." "Our Sunday Visitor" February 5
1950.
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."
Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter June 20 1894.
Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3, but the Catholic
Church "can claim the honour of having granted man a pause to his
work every seven days." S C Morse. "Storia della Domenica" 1969
pp.366-367.
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is
Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under a veil of flesh." "The Catholic
National" july 1895.
"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on
the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following the law of
the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of
Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10
1920.
"We define that the Holy Apostolic See (the Vatican) and the Roman
Pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world." A decree of the
Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart "The
Most Holy Councils" Vol 13 col 1167.
It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ,
has transferred this rest (from the Bible Sabbath) to the Sunday..
Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they
pay, in spite of themselves to the authority of the Catholic
Church." Monsignor Louis Segur "Plain Talk About Protestantism
Today" p. 213
"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church
transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann
CSSR "A Doctrinal Catechism" 1957 edition p. 50.
"We Catholics, then, have precisely the same authority for keeping
Sunday holy instead of Saturday as we have for every other article
in our creed, namely, the authority of the Church.. whereas you who
are Protestants have really no authority for Sunday sacredness what-
soever; for there is no authority for it in the Bible, and you will
not allow that there can be authority for it anywhere else. Both you
and we do, in fact follow tradition in this matter; but we follow
it, believing it to be part of God's word, and the Catholic Church
to be its divinely appointed guardian and interpreter; you follow
the Catholic Church, denouncing it all the time as a fallible and
treacherous guide, which often 'makes the commandments of God of
none effect' (Matthew 15:6). The Brotherhood of St.Paul "The Clifton
Tracts" vol.4, tract 4, p. 15.
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given her by her founder Jesus
Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of
faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." The
Catholic Universe Bulletin" August 14 1942.
P.S. The Bible is your only safe guide. Jesus can help you obey it.

[Aaron]

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:26:59 +1200, "Frank Trebor"
<***@hotmail.com> wrote:

Now, now. Give proper credit where it is due. Sundayworship is a
Babylonian theology, from the cult of Mithra their "sun-god."

And of course Deuteronomy 12:29-31 forbids any pagan custom from being
used to worship God. So, it is not just Catholic; it is evil.

[Frank Trebor]

If you are going to leave my "handle" in, leave some of my msg as well!

Post by Aaron
Now, now. Give proper credit where it is due. Sundayworship is a
Babylonian theology, from the cult of Mithra their "sun-god."
And of course Deuteronomy 12:29-31 forbids any pagan custom from being
used to worship God. So, it is not just Catholic; it is evil.

In any case, what the early roman church decided *may* have
been based on the cult of Mithra, but the decision to use
the first day of the week was entirely satan's influence, also
satan predates ANY and ALL "other" religions in his feeble
attempt to usurp the throne of the only True God

[AKA me]

Post by Frank Trebor
In any case, what the early roman church decided *may* have
been based on the cult of Mithra, but the decision to use
the first day of the week was entirely satan's influence, also
satan predates ANY and ALL "other" religions in his feeble
attempt to usurp the throne of the only True God

Actually, you're wrong again. We've asked the unanswered questions about
Saturday and Biblical mandates. However, to use the word Satan in reference
to Catholicism is getting downright serious. adventists have as their
agenda the Saturday Sabbath, which is OK with me, but their insistence that
it its the ONLY worship walk is inexcusable. And your continued attacks
against the Catholics who worship with all sincerity is a sign of a sick
mind. Get help.

EW

[Frank Trebor]

Post by AKA me
However, to use the word Satan in reference
to Catholicism is getting downright serious. adventists have as their
agenda the Saturday Sabbath, which is OK with me, but their insistence that
it its the ONLY worship walk is inexcusable. And your continued attacks
against the Catholics who worship with all sincerity is a sign of a sick
mind. Get help.

Well now, "EW", or should that be "AKA me" ?

I will, as will others, continue to state the fact that the VATICAN
is doing satan's work by preaching another gospel -
The seventh day Sabbath is God's day that He set aside for
communing with Him - not the 1st day as required by the vatican!

The sooner you and your cronies realise this the sooner
you will be acceptable to God, and btw

It is you that needs help, try asking the Holy Spirit